TREASURE AUCTION #2
Jump to Bruce Prior / Kelly Tarlton
Louis Ullian (a long overdue interview)
Lou Ullian (left) with Dan Sedwick
In the treasure world known as Florida we dwell with living legends, such as Sir Robert Marx, Bob “Frogfoot” Weller, Capt. Carl Fismer and many others. But as each year passes, another respected treasure man leaves uS: Art McKee, Kip Wagner, Mel Fisher…. Perhaps the most recent “big name” was Dan Thompson, one of the original members of the famous Real Eight Co. formed by Kip Wagner in the late 1950s to salvage the 1715 Fleet, easily one of the most significant treasure finds in our lifetime. Another Real Eight member was Lou Ullian, a major consignor in this sale and a longtime friend of ours who unfortunately has suffered with Parkinson’s disease for the past several years now. For a long time we have wanted to interview Lou and get his perspective on a number of treasure issues. In some ways we waited too long, as Lou’s physical condition does not allow him to speak with 100% clarity; but Lou’s mind is as sharp as ever, and his thoughts and emotions are clear. He even has a surprisingly strong handshake!
On July 27 we finally had the good fortune to be able to interview Lou at his home in Merritt Island, and this was what he had to say:
DFS: For those who have not read about you in Pieces of Eight and other important references, please give me a brief overview of your life up to and including your first affiliations with Kip Wagner and Real Eight Co.
LU: I was raised in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, graduated high school and went to Purdue University…received a degree in mechanical engineering…went into the Navy as an ordnance engineer for 3½ years, in Yorktown, Virginia, worked on the first guided missile cruiser…married to my wife in 1954, have two children, boy and girl, three grandchildren. I met Kip through Del Long. I started diving in 1948 once I got in the Navy. Out of the Navy in 1955, I went to work at Cape Canaveral as an ordnance engineer, still diving. Met Del through the diving club, and he told me about a man by the name of Kip Wagner who was finding coins on the beach. He took me down there and introduced me to Kip. Kip was just about ready to start putting together a salvage company. Since I was a diver, I was one of the first divers to get involved with Kip. Two Air Force officers, Harry Cannon and Dan Thompson, ran Real Eight. But me… Harry didn’t know how to dive but he had a boat. One January, one of the coldest days in January, we threw Harry in the swimming pool at the officer’s club and taught him how to dive. In 1959 and 1960, we worked at the first 1715 wreck, Urca de Lima, two miles north of Ft. Pierce inlet. Kip had leases from the State of Florida for all of the 1715 wrecks. In January, 1961, on the coldest day of the year, down at the cabin, Kip could see cannon offshore there and we got in the boat and put on wetsuits…with the cannons were…two chests with clumps weighing about 70 lb each. We determined they were full of coins, and we tried to carry them both back to the boat but we couldn’t do it, and had to leave one on the bottom…we uncovered about 2400 coins that day, first day on the wreck!
DFS: That was “Cabin Wreck,” right?
LU: Yes, Cabin Wreck.
DFS: What were your accomplishments and duties under Real Eight Co.? Did you have a specific role with Real Eight, or just diving?
LU: Just a diver.
DFS: Did you make—personally—some finds that were significant for Real Eight at that time?
LU: I did. I found K’ang Hsi china…down at the bottom using a sand dredge…all of a sudden intact china cups came out of the dredge…30-40 cups. Soon as we went back to the inlet that night, the engine quit, but Kip put the china in the life preservers…said [the china was] more important than we were!
DFS: I bet that was a pretty sight! What was it like finding gold on these wrecks?
LU: Found a lot of gold. First gold we found was 23 coins on the Cabin Wreck. That was the day we brought Mel Fisher to Florida.
DFS: Before we get to Mel Fisher, though, what was the largest number of coins or artifacts found in one day in the 1960s?
LU: Two and a half tons of silver.
DFS: Was that the two chests you said you found?
LU: No, this was over the keel of the ship.
DFS: Cabin Wreck still?
LU: Yes. About two and a half tons of silver.
DFS: How many chests do you figure that was?
LU: Oh, 15 or 20.
DFS: Wow. Then maybe a couple thousand coins per chest?
LU: Three thousand coins per chest. Three bags, each bag with a thousand coins.
DFS: So that’s what? Fifty thousand coins or so that you found all at once?
LU: Yes.
DFS: That’s pretty amazing! But all silver, right?
LU: All silver.
DFS: What was your most harrowing experience diving or searching on these wrecks?
LU: In 1962, in the middle of the winter, dead…I got to work the wreck…couldn’t get the boat in past the third reef, so Dan and I swam in to the area between the first and second reef…Dan came up to me, tapped me on the shoulder…said he just bumped into a shark, decided to go back to the boat. I don’t know who was more scared, him or the shark! Sharks used to mate there at “Cabin”…I got some pictures of three or four sharks in a wave.
DFS: So you’d routinely see sharks, then, at Cabin Wreck.
LU: Yes. Didn’t seem to bother us, though.
DFS: Still, that had to be nerve-wracking to be working with sharks in the vicinity. But no attacks, then?
LU: One time we had probably a 25-foot tiger shark…come off the bottom out of the water, swam under the boat, nearly as long as the boat. We didn’t do any more diving that day.
DFS: I guess not! Again before I get to Mel Fisher, let me ask you thiS: Until relatively recently, at least in my experience, it wasn’t standard for collectors to really keep track of which exact 1715 site their coins came from, but over the years I, at least, have relied upon you to help me figure out which wrecks certain items came from. Can you give any general tips as to how you determine the origins?
LU: Well, basically I kept records, in a little notebook. I wrote down each day what was found.
DFS: You seem to have a lot of it committed to memory as well.
LU: True. I got interested in the coins very early, knew they were worth some money. Bob Nesmith came down, looked at them and said “right now you think they’re just like oyster shells but these coins will be worth a lot of money some day. You need to keep good records.” And he convinced me to do that, showed me how.
DFS: And you still have these records, right?
LU: Sure do.
DFS: Were these records ever anything the State was interested in, or did you ever assist the State in record-keeping?
LU: I helped them, but they didn’t seem too interested.
DFS: Right, that’s been my impression. How did Mel Fisher change Real Eight when he came along, and 1715-Fleet salvage in general?
LU: I was working for the Air Force at the time, made a lot of trips to the west coast and every time I went to the west coast I would go to dive shops. I walked into Mel’s dive shop and he was out diving. Dee Fisher was there…showed me silver cob pieces Mel was carrying in his store…I told her she had half reals…I showed her some 8 reals…Mel was diving on the Silver Shoals wreck off Puerto Rico…I told her he should stop by to see Kip on the way down…he agreed, started to come work with us. The week after the holidays Mel’s crew worked five days a week, ten hours a day. He made it more of a business.
DFS: Changed the face of it, I guess?
LU: Yes.
DFS: But also, if I remember correctly, one of his associates was Fay Feild who brought the magnetometer to work on the wrecks, I’m sure that changed it.
LU: That helped a lot.
DFS: But Mel had not met Kip until you invited him to come meet with you, is that correct?
LU: Right.
DFS: How did he and Kip get along?
LU: Pretty well.
DFS: Did everyone with Real Eight get along well with Mel?
LU: Harry didn’t get along with him, but everyone else did.
DFS: What eventually happened between Mel and Real Eight and how did Real Eight eventually dissolve?
LU: Mel found out about the Atocha, wanted to look for it, spent more time in the Keys, less time on the 1715 Fleet. So he was down in the Keys quite a bit, that’s why we dissolved the relationship, he wanted to work in the Keys and we wanted to work 1715. Real Eight stayed probably till about 1972 then it dissolved…Kip had died, so the glue that held us together was no longer there.
DFS: So it was pretty much when Kip died that Real Eight ended?
LU: Yes, plus the fact that we were used to going out on the Cabin Wreck and getting 1000-2000 coins a day.
DFS: And that wasn’t happening any more?
LU: That wasn’t happening any more.
DFS: How did Mel Fisher end up with all of the leases on those wrecks?
LU: When Real Eight Co. dissolved, we let Mel come in and take over the leases.
DFS: Well, of course, most of the Real Eight people have since passed away; of those, who were your closest associates, and what are your favorite memories of your association with them?
LU: We were always good friends. I still spend a lot of time with Rex Stocker, Kip’s nephew. I see Del Long once in a while, John Jones; but Harry [Cannon] and Dan [Thompson] and Doc [Dr. Kip Kelso] all passed away. We were always good friends.
DFS: Did they all stay in this area?
LU: Yes.
DFS: That’s amazing that you could stay friends throughout all of that. It’s not the usual thing for treasure divers to stick together and stay friends after finding things. What do you think is the future of 1715-Fleet salvage?
LU: I think most of the wrecks have been found…most of the treasure has been found…still getting a little bit of stuff.
DFS: So you don’t think that new sites will be found?
LU: Rex Stocker may have found one in 42 feet of water. I don’t think it will be a major ship. The two capitanas and two almirantas we worked carried most of the treasure.
DFS: Everything else is just a boat that would not have had anything on it in the first place.
LU: Yeah, not much on them.
DFS: Do you think any of the current sites will yield any new finds, or do you think they’ve all been pretty well worked, both the capitanas and the almirantas?
LU: I think maybe there’s still a partial chest, there’s some jewelry to be found, but I don’t think major finds of silver or gold coins will be made.
DFS: Not the cargo, in other words.
LU: That’s right.
DFS: You are also known for your involvement with various important salvage operations on the Pacific coast of South America, particularly Ecuador; what is your role in the operations down south?
LU: Provide money.
DFS: So it’s just the financial support?
LU: I’ll work the coins, clean them, treat them, once they find the main part of the wreck.
DFS: So you do provide numismatic assistance with that and expertise?
LU: Yes.
DFS: And you do your own cleaning?
LU: Yes.
DFS: What do you predict for the future regarding these operations down in South America?
LU: Well, the wreck we’re looking for, sunk in 1612, should have 6 or 7 million pesos of silver and gold on it.
DFS: Six or 7 million pesos?!
LU: That’s what they claim. The Spanish couldn’t salvage it, some boxes were ruined…little too much mud there.
DFS: What depth of water is it?
LU: Twenty to 30 feet.
DFS: But the mud overburden is a lot more?
LU: Nine or 10 feet of mud.
DFS: Is that the only promising site that’s being looked at down there?
LU: Four or 5 other sites.
DFS: But that one’s getting the main attention.
LU: That’s the first, yes.
DFS: How about the Capitana [of 1654]? Has that been worked out, do you think?
LU: I think it’s been worked out.
DFS: Where I want to go now is into your numismatic interests over the years. You’ve been accurately known as an accomplished numismatist among divers, kind of a rare breed; could you please describe some of the things you’ve had an interest in over the years.
LU: Thanks to Bob Nesmith, soon as we started finding all the silver coins, we decided we needed to keep a record of them. When we first found them, we’d take them in to coin shops, but they never saw them [before], didn’t know what they were. So we decided we needed to put them up for auction. Henry Christensen and Harvey Stack set up auctions, started selling the coins, trying to get people interested in them. When we first started selling the coins, they’d sell for $25-$30 apiece. Today a good 1715[-Fleet] coin, undated, will bring $125. A full dated coin will bring $400 or $500. What’s amazing is that of the nearly 100,000 coins we picked up, it’s hard to find 1715[-Fleet] coins. They disappeared into collectors’ hands.
DFS: What was your role, then, in the auctions that took place?
LU: I helped attribute the coins. Also I found…different ways to clean coins, learned how to clean coins (I think) better than anyone else.
DFS: Did you have numismatic interests before the coins were found on the 1715 Fleet?
LU: I used to collect American large cents. I had some numismatic interest in American type-coins and large pennies.
DFS: Do you still collect anything besides the shipwreck coins?
LU: Not really.
DFS: What do you see as the future of shipwreck salvage in general, particularly concerning government involvement and deepwater salvage with robotics?
LU: Well, I think deepwater salvage is here…[S.S.] Central America [1857] is a good example of that. I think the government sees it as a new source of money. They’re going to try to grab control of it. Spain has competed with the United States over warships here to the north of us.
DFS: What do you think that means for collectors?
LU: They just want to collect coins. What’ll happen is it’ll go underground.
DFS: When it becomes a situation, though, where you have to salvage in deep water and spend a lot of money to run a robot and crew and that kind of thing, these days we seem to be seeing companies that spend a lot of money and have big companies to manage and do things very promotionally to make up for it—do you think that’s the future of it, or do you think it will go underground, as you say, with that type of operation?
LU: The governments…will put unreasonable rules and restrictions on them and it will go underground. If they don’t, they will go out of business.
DFS: That leads into your experience with Ecuador. Did you partake in any of the negotiations with the government of Ecuador?
LU: Joel Ruth did most of that. Now we have a good relationship with that government.
DFS: I see that as an example of a government that is doing things properly and constructively, working with the divers and the salvage company.
LU: True. The Ecuadorians feel the Spanish stole from them anyhow.
DFS: Good point. Are there any other governments that seem to have a good mindset like Ecuador?
LU: Cuba does.
DFS: Cuba does? That’s surprising. You never see shipwreck coins from Cuba, though. Do they just stay in Cuba?
LU: Mostly stay in Cuba.
DFS: Do you see a future for shipwreck salvage in Cuban waters?
LU: I think once the United States gets its head out of the sand, then it’ll become a very fertile ground.
DFS: Well then at that point do you think Cuba will allow the coins to go elsewhere?
LU: I think so.
DFS: To bring in revenue for their country?
LU: I think so.
DFS: That’s interesting. What about the Bahamas? Do you see any future for the Bahamas? They’ve been kind of off and on.
LU: I’m not sure what’s going to happen there.
DFS: What was your relationship with the Maravillas salvagers, Humphreys and them? Did you assist them in any way numismatically?
LU: I attributed the coins and cleaned them. Very interesting story, how I got involved with them. Herbo Humphreys sent John de Bry a box of jewelry coins they were going to sell for about $100 apiece. John gave them to me to attribute. I found one coin there worth about $5000. I called Herbo Humphreys and said “do you really want to sell these for $100 apiece? I’ll buy them all. I got one coin in here that is worth four or five thousand dollars.” He says “you’re kidding!” He flew me up there, and I sold the coin for him the next day.
DFS: [Laughing] So did you get to buy the whole box for $100 each?
LU: No. About 40 coins, half of them were worth two-three hundred dollars.
DFS: What role have you taken in marketing over the years for the various shipwreck coins you’ve handled.
LU: I’ve worked with Stack’s, Henry Christensen, Ponterio, Frank and Dan Sedwick.
DFS: Of course! It pays to know what you’re doing and know the right people to deal with, I guess.
LU: That’s for sure.
DFS: I’m sure a lot of divers over the years have depended on your connections.
LU: I’ve enjoyed it. Still work with Dan Sedwick a lot [laughs].
DFS: Do you miss the diving much? Was that one of your favorite aspects?
LU: Yeah I do miss the diving.
DFS: It sounds like camaraderie with the Real Eight gentlemen was also quite enjoyable.
LU: Sure was.
DFS: Can you think of anything else you want to add, any other stories?
LU: Coins are the history of mankind. Every South and Central American cob tells an interesting story of our early history. It’s been a very interesting adventure, more than most people get to do. I was lucky. I met Kip…we had a lot of fun diving on the wrecks. Back in those days…when Kip and the others were involved…made it very pleasant. For four of five years we just enjoyed our weekends diving. Our wives put up with a lot. My parents lived down in Sebastian. We’d drop my wife off with two kids…then we went diving, and we’d come back and they’d have supper all ready for us.
DFS: Did your children ever have any interest in diving?
LU: Not really. It’s interesting, my daughter says “wish I’d have been interested,” she’s interested now! One other story I’ll tell you: National Geographic came to us to do an article, and we pulled about a million dollars’ worth of stuff out of the bank. And Helen’s [Lou’s wife] brother, Jimmy, visited us, and we put him the spare bedroom and we didn’t tell him that underneath the bed we put a million dollars’ worth of gold and silver. The next morning when he woke we said, “was the bed lumpy?” “A little bit.” I said, “well, it was all the gold bars and silver coins….” He still talks about that!
DFS: A new twist to the Princess and the Pea!
LU: He couldn’t believe we had all this gold and silver stuck around the house.
DFS: Yeah. It’s hard for people to conceive, sometimes, the staggering value of the material that has come up over the years.
LU: Another time, at Dan’s [Thompson] house, we found about 1500 gold coins one day, and it was too late to put them in the bank…so Dan got out a card table in his and his wife’s bedroom, piled all the coins on the bed and on the card table. I told him “let’s go to my home and get some supper,” I was hungry. Went home, ate supper. Jane, Dan’s wife, went into the bedroom, turned on the light, and a pile of gold was glistening at her! She couldn’t understand how I could go home and eat supper and leave all the gold coins lying around.
DFS: Well, that is kind of risky! What have you done for security over the years?
LU: Keep quiet.
DFS: Keep quiet and low profile?
LU: Yes.
DFS: And big dogs, I guess [laughing].
LU: True. [Lou and his wife have two big German shepherds, who mingled with us throughout the interview.]
DFS: I have an associate who told me his method of security is that he lives with his family only at the top of a mountain in Oregon and they have large dogs and that’s all they’ve ever needed for security.
LU: I keep everything in the bank.
DFS: Yeah, that’s the best thing.
LU: Enjoyed talking to you.
DFS: I’ve enjoyed having the pleasure of the interview. It’s something I’ve wanted to do for a long time.
This auction presents the first of what we hope will be many consignments of duplicates from the vast treasure library of David S. Crooks, whose Bibliographies (Bibliography of Sunken Treasure Books and Bibliography of Important Shipwreck Auction Catalogs) and website (www.sunkentreasurebooks.com) have been invaluable resources for collectors of treasure-related media.
Dave’s interest in treasure began in 1974, when a post-collegiate dive-trip to the Florida Keys turned into an enviable jump-start in the business world. It was at the Half Shell Raw Bar in Key West that Dave found himself conversing with none other than Mel Fisher, who soon offered him a job. By the end of that year, Dave would become Vice President of Treasure Salvors, Inc.
The Key West stint lasted two years, but in that time Dave got quite a start on his personal library of treasure-related books. Since then, his holdings have surpassed some 2000 books!
Since the Key West days, Dave found his niche in business, after working for various large companies here and in Australia. In 1997 Dave began Easy Pay Solutions, Inc., a credit card-processing company, and is currently its president. He lives with his family in the suburbs of Chicago, where he is the Illinois admissions representative for the College of William and Mary, from which he graduated with a law degree and MBA. He is also a scoutmaster and an avid backpacker.
Bruce Prior / Kelly Tarlton
Bruce Prior
Kelly Tarlton, ca. 1968 (from The Elingamite and its Treasure, lot #551 in this sale)
In our last sale we featured the shipwreck coin collection of Australian numismatist Bruce Prior, whose biography can be found in that catalog. For this sale we were honored to accept Bruce’s wonderful treasure library for consignment. This library, consisting of some 200+ books and auction catalogs, was assembled with a perspective you don’t see over here, that of a native Australian! Many of the books are from authors and publishers who are literally on the other side of the world from us here in the States—in some cases these books are harder to get than coins or artifacts from the shipwrecks they describe!
A major and noteworthy portion of Bruce’s library came from the Museum of Shipwrecks in Paihia, New Zealand, run by that country’s most famous salvager, the late Kelly Tarlton. Kelly’s fame as a diver came from several projects around New Zealand, particularly the salvage of the Elingamite (1902) in 1968 in collaboration with Wade Doak and others. Kelly also worked with divers in other parts of the world, including (briefly) Mel Fisher in the 1970s. In 1985 Kelly died from heart problems. He was 57.
Kelly had opened his museum in 1970 in an old sailing ship that was beached near the Waitangi River. After his death the museum continued until his family sold it and the ship in 2002, at which point Kelly’s library quietly went up for auction, an opportunity Bruce Prior could not resist! Curiously, most of the books from Kelly’s museum were inscribed (presumably by Kelly himself) with “Please return to Kelly Tarlton Shipwreck Museum” with a mailing address, as it appears his library was more public than private.
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